Episode 16

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Speaker 0: Welcome to the Catholic Frequency podcast. Last month, I had a great conversation with Sean Baroob. We had a space on the social media platform X, and it was called the Lies of the Sexual Revolution. We took up something that he wrote on x, a very long thread about the lies we were sold back in the nineteen sixties at the start of the sexual revolution. That space was very well received, so we're back with part two.
Hey, Sean.
Speaker 1: Hello, Shannon. I'm doing great tonight. How are you doing?
Speaker 0: Good. Good. I see you're rocking a new, profile pic there.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm undergoing a little bit of a rebrand right now. In fact, I've got a few fun announcements. I'll save that for later towards the end of the space.
But, yeah, I've been trying to keep busy and have a few good things cooking in the pipeline, you could say.
Speaker 0: Awesome. Well, last month, at the December, you you did this thread, the sexual revolution was a disaster, and you talked about the lies of the sexual revolution. It had, like, almost three quarters of a million people, viewed that thread. That sort of sparked a little online conversation that we had. We ended up doing a space about it.
A lot of people liked it. And so we just decided we'll keep doing spaces together, and and we sort of gonna do I guess, we're calling this kind of part two, but it's it's sort of, what the answer is, right, to, to the lies we were told so so many decades ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Most definitely. I mean, I have to say I've been doing spaces here on x for almost a year now, and the one we did last month was easily in my my favorite of all time. That just and, yeah, for that alone, that told me, you know, one, I need to do more spaces with Shannon. That was our first one.
First, as many more as we've been saying. And and two, I found the the toxo edifying that I've just continued to go down into a rabbit hole of, I mean, not just, researching this topic, but really trying to spread the good word you could say about the lies of the sexual revolution, yes, but also the, you know, the solution and how we can really use our sexuality to our to our benefit, which is, you know, it seems that this is a morality that is completely forgotten or removed from the the public lexicon today. So it felt only fitting in in light of our past base to stay. Okay. Not only have we discussed about certain lies, but how can we address the lies?
How can we actively seek to to glorify God and sanctify our bodies out of love for God and our fellow men and, you know, be become vessels and beacons of what healthy sexuality looks like. And, hopefully, that's what we'll try to, unpack here today.
Speaker 0: Well, let's sort of recap. You know, the the sexual revolution was was sold as this, you know, this bill of goods. This is gonna make you happy. Right? If it feels good, do it.
Free love. Nothing else matters. All the movies, all the TV shows, all the music. Let's let's recap those lies, but but I don't think people are happier today than they were many decades ago. I mean, we're kind of a society of miserable people, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 1: I would, thoroughly agree with that. I think that's true on almost all levels. There's certainly dissatisfaction with our relationships, romance. There's a very big discord among the sexes as well. This is the one thing I've noticed, especially for the younger people my age, the millennials, Zoomers and such there's it's, it seems that there's a mutual discord that both men and women today, they express a desire that they want some form of a loving relationship or marriage or a meaningful connection.
But at the same time, men are very unhappy with women and they'll toss terms around like women today are entitled or they're not dateable or they have too high standards or expectations. And conversely, women will say at the same time that men are not living up to their traditional roles as, masculine men and that they're, you know, they're not living up to their standards either. So I've always found it funny that it's like, well, what's going wrong here? Why is it that everyone is to some extent expressing a desire for happiness in a meaningful relationship? Whereas at the same time, everyone is expressing a dissatisfaction with the other side.
Is it men's fault? Is it women's fault? So it definitely seems then that, you know, the the bill of goods that we may have been sold through the the sexual revolution that was introduced in the sixties and I think really has taken its roots and sunk its teeth into the American culture and popular culture today. I think that a lot of these lies are what is fueling to the mutual unhappiness amongst the sexes today in the realm of relationships and sexuality. And I think that will give evidence and authority enough on its own to show that what was pushed by the sexual revolution was indeed a lie and ideas that go against human nature and bring you unhappiness rather than a for, form of happiness, joy, or flourishing.
Speaker 0: I have to almost laugh. From time to time, I post something nice about, like, Saint Joseph and fathers, and fathers are very important. And there's this woman, I kinda call her a man hater, but she always posts, like, some snide comment about a man. Like like, today, I did it. You know, it's this beautiful old picture of of the holy family with with Jesus doing some carpentry work with Joseph, and she posted, Saint Joseph is the last dad to teach his son to work.
I mean, she she always post these things. It's like it's just she's so angry at the other sex. It's it's just really kinda hard hard to believe. So what they sold us, which which they knew would destabilize the family. We talked about this last month.
It wasn't that the architects of the sexual revolution were just wanting to have a good time. They really set out to destabilize society, didn't they?
Speaker 1: Yes. Most definitely. This is the part that I always laugh at and get. It's a little uncomfortable or funny at first because if you're not too familiar with the origins and roots of the sexual revolution and the thinking and the leaders that led up to it, it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory. I almost feel at this point that I'm putting on my tinfoil hat but it would not be too much of a stretch to say that the sexual revolution was indeed a web of intentional lies built by Marxists from the Frankfurt School, who had the explicit purpose of telling lies about human sexuality to misconstrue our understanding of human sexuality, to ultimately reap discord amongst the sexes, male and female, and destroy the human family, which is the traditionally the family is seen as a foundational and fundamental unit of the, of society.
So their theory was let's redefine sexuality to be about pleasure and release and emotional gratification, not love for your spouse that's oriented under a love for God. And if we can fundamentally redefine the meaning of sexuality itself, this will disrupt this harmony between the sexes, destroy the family, and disrupt the social fabric of society such that Marxism can reign free. So I realize that's a lot to just throw out there without diving deep. I'd recommend anyone who wants to really go deep into that can check our last space or look into some of its leaders who are mainstream leaders like Kate Millet or Herbert Marcuse. But more or less speaking, that was the thesis of the sexual revolution, push promiscuity to destroy the family.
Speaker 0: Yeah. The sexual revolution normalized promiscuity. It's hard to almost put ourselves back in the mindset to go back a few decades, but it used to be scandalous to be promiscuous. It used to be frowned upon by society, and now it's it's just the opposite. If you wanna, if you're some 23 or 24 year old and you're saving yourself for your marriage, you're you're made fun of.
Why are why are the architects of this so threatened by, you know, morality for lack of a better word?
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I think a lot of this has to tie this might go a little beyond mere sexuality itself, but you would say the modern doctrine of modernity, which really goes against traditional Catholic theology and understanding of the purpose to life, the doctrine of modernity, which became popular the early twentieth century after the figurative death of God, right? God is dead. Let's move on from religion and be free and liberated and happy. The central foundation of this philosophy would be autonomy.
That's the word we hear tossed around quite a bit today that nothing matters but freedom and freedom got redefined to not be the sort of flourishing you feel when you voluntarily surrender yourself to the good or morality as a scribe to God. No. Freedom is basically having the ability to do whatever you want, whatever you want, however you want. And this this freedom is tied very much into an Epicurean idea of pleasure that I want the freedom to do whatever I want so that I can have pleasure and live a good life and create my own meaning for the time that I'm here. And given that, sexual freedom would be considered maybe the most holy aspect of this new doctrine of autonomy, any sort of morality that's introduced on trying to govern what's a good or bad use of morality would be seen as a hindrance on your personal freedom or personal autonomy.
So in a world where autonomy is the new god or the new idol that we worship, sex is considered the heated battleground where everyone is fighting fighting all over it, which of course ties into the big debates we'd see between abortion and pro life as well. But that won't go down. I won't digress too far from the main point.
Speaker 0: Before we sort of dive into sort of the positive aspect, the church's answer to this, what healthy sexuality looks like, I would just sort of say, you know, in many ways, they've won the battle. Right? Our our society has been corrupted. Our morals have been corrupted. They've conquered Hollywood, the music industry, and just human beings by our our base desires, desire what they're selling.
Right? It's it's the through Christianity, and and the Saint Paul talks about we have to resist the flesh. Just naturally, they have the advantage. How do we ever get back to a society that values, sexual morality and and doesn't worship and elevate promiscuity? If you think about the, you know, the women that that the culture holds up, the the Taylor Swifts, the Madonnas, the Lady Gagas, you know, the these are not ladies by any stretch of the imagination.
Would you be optimistic that it's even possible, or will we always be swimming against against the tide?
Speaker 1: Most of my friends, people who know me dearly, they they wouldn't necessarily call me delusional, but I have been referred to lightheartedly as a obnoxiously positive optimist. So one, I suppose, and to your point, yes, you could say within the past century or so, the whatever you want to call them, the the modernists, the Marxists, the far left, they have been crushing in the culture wars. And I think that a lot of that has to do if you're to give the devil his due. They were very patient. They had what Gramsci called the long march to the institutions, which is we're just going to slowly but steadily infiltrate institutions like universities, positions of power and slowly but steadily will this get a foothold till we dominate.
And so they were playing the long game. And, you know, it worked for for them for a time being. But already in this day and age, it seems that there's a source of cultural rejection and a a course correction, at least in America right now that there's a rejection of wokeism. The reason why I'm an optimist in the the the macro scale is because objectively, nothing can defeat the truth. Like, that's God is true and nothing can defeat God and we are with God, then who can stand against us?
Right? And by and large, the sexual revolution, which is foundationally built upon a string of lies, it can't hold itself up. It's inherently doomed to collapse in one way or another. As far as perhaps the the best actions to take to orient ourselves, I believe above all else, and this is a bit more anecdotal as far as what's worked for me, it's it always comes back down to something that is frustratingly simple but at the same time, I think inconceivably underestimated by all of us, which is really the power that we have to enact remarkable change and transformations in both ourselves and the world around us by simply adhering to the simple duties of Christianity. Above all else, the golden rule of God with all your heart and thy neighbor of thyself.
And perhaps keeping a sort of Sermon on the Mount lens on on reality of let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, that each day has enough worries of its own. Rather than trying to fix the world, let's look at today in the here and now, try to get my house in order, let me take care of my duties, let me love my neighbor, be a good, husband, be a good wife, good spouse, parent, and so on and so forth. And I think we remarkably underestimate the transformative power of just this little act and sort of contract with God can do for changing ourselves and, eventually, the world.
Speaker 0: Let's move into, to our second section on our topic tonight, and that is, you know, from the Catholic perspective, what is the purpose of sexuality?
Speaker 1: Most definitely. So, first, I'll just preface that the the main sources will be drawn from here to, explain these teachings come from, Pope Paul the sixth, work, Humana Vitae and then Pope John Paul the second's masterpiece, The Theology of the Body. So what does healthy sexuality look like to Catholics? Well, the purpose of sexuality in a word is to turn your eros into agape so that you can flourish as a virtuous charitable human being. So to define those two terms, these are both eros and agape.
They're both Greek terms that connotate love. Eros specifically is the Greek word for romantic passion or eroticism or your sexual desire or drive, your sexual energy. Agape, a Greek word for divine heavenly love. You can think of this as the love that is the essence of God or the love that is expressed as willing the good of the other, or as John Paul, defines it, the love that is a gift of self. So the purpose is learning how to learning the morality of sexuality so that you use your sexuality, your eros, to channel into agape and to unconditional love that you become and embody a a beacon of charity above all else.
Speaker 0: For people who don't know the theology of the body, this is a very interesting so in Rome, every Wednesday, the pope has what they call the Wednesday audience. So he comes out of Saint Peter's Square, and he delivers a message, little reading, and it's read in multiple languages. And for five years, sort of at the beginning of his pontificate from 1979 to 1984, he did a I think it was like a over a hundred talks where he talked about the theology of the body, and they've they've compiled this into some works. I'll try to find a link and, and post it before the space is over. But, you're right.
This is like one of the seminal works of, of John Paul the second. And then as you referenced, Geminovite was a very controversial Is it a encyclical or an exhortation? Obviously, I'm confused. I think it's an encyclical from from pope Paul the sixth. Basically, he was kind of, I think, expected to come out and say contraception's okay.
I believe there were a lot of theologians on this committee, and they all sort of recommended any sort of shocked the Catholic world from what I read about it. Can you address that at all, Sean, just just how countercultural, you know, Paul the sixth was at the in that?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Most definitely. The yeah. The introduction of Humanae, you could say it drew a lot of I don't know if scandal is the right word, but certainly uproar and controversy, specifically because above all else, he rules on a lot, but the biggest one seems to be that he spoke out against, contraception. And it's almost understandable, I think, at first why you might why a critic of the church might say, okay, the Catholic church is antiquated or outdated or stuck in the past.
Like, what's wrong with using contraception, especially if there's a couple who genuinely does love each other, like a married couple even, and they just want to, you know, responsibly express this love for another without, risking children? What's what's really wrong with that? And I I I don't wanna get too ahead of myself, but, we'll we'll get down into, you know, I guess, what is quote unquote wrong with that, but more specifically, how how it adopting a stance that, adopting a stance that perhaps permits contraception roots fundamentally redefining human sexuality and straying from God's plan. But I think the without getting too far ahead of myself, the the main two principles that emerged out of these documents as far as was sound morality on Catholic sexuality. They said sex in the conjugal act is essentially moral if it's one, expressed in marriage, thereby strengthening the unity and the bond of the husband and wife, and two, if it is open to the possibility of creating new life.
And, of course, it's that second point that really drew the air.
Speaker 0: Yeah. A publication wrote that Humanae Vitae provoked the greatest challenge to papal authority since the reformation. It was really shocking to a lot of people who thought, you know, hey. It's the sixties. It's the swinging sixties, and, you know, the pope's gonna he's gonna loosen the rules or whatever.
And, he didn't. He really really held held the ground. Yeah. Because what Humana Vite is talking about that sex is in marriage and is is open to new life is it points you towards the other. Right?
It's not a selfish about how I feel. Because if you just take that one part out and if it becomes about my pleasure, then how could you say anything is wrong? Right? If if I derive pleasure, you know, from whatever, there has to be because the the church is great about the synthesis of of faith and reason. Right?
We balance these things. And so there's just sort of no logical way. Once you go down that road, if it feels good, do it. There's no stopping. There's no stopping.
So there has to be rule and the and the church has the correct one. Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. So I suppose touching on that point, the the risk of contraception is well, what's what's wrong with disrupting the the procreative from the unitive? It really does come down to you're risking fundamentally redefining what sexuality looks like. Specifically, the first risk is that if you put the purpose of sexuality beneath the procreative process, you're you're saying that the pleasure and the emotional gratification that you derive from the sexual act is more important than procreation itself.
And Pope Paul VI warns that this is essentially dehumanizing. It will basically redefine the body as an instrument of pleasure. And this is already a very fun callback to the lies of the sexual revolution because thirty years earlier, Herbert Marcuse, who I referenced earlier, one of the great pushers of the sexual revolution again, he's from the Frankfurt School and his agenda was let's redefine sexuality to disrupt the social fabric. He said we need to redefine sexuality to be about pleasure above all else and have pregnancy come second because it's this redefinition of the body as an instrument of pleasure for personal gratification that will fuel the catalyst to all of this change. And I think it's important to show how this can be prophetic and has potentially concrete real world consequences as opposed to just some theological riffing here.
In Humana Vitae, Pope Paul VI, he predicted a litany of societal issues that would come from this essential redefining of the the sexual act if we disrupt the procreative from the unitive. He said, If we get rid of the procreative, you know, normalize contraception and make sex primarily about pleasure, certain things will rise namely a decline in all moral standards including but not limited to standards around sexual morality. Two, there will be a rise in the objectification and the exploitation of women. And three, there will be a weakening and an erosion and in its fullest form, a full out collapse of family structures. If you're looking from the 1960s to today, I think a lot of these hold up well.
If we look at decline in moral standards, again, one of the great lies today is that all sexuality is largely good. Love is love so long as there is consent given. And moreover, there's the moral relativism has been the fad for the better part of the twenty first century. This idea that there is no inherent morality, there is no inherent right or wrong. There's really just my truth and your truth and our personal freedom and autonomy and our mutual agreement to not step on one another.
As far as the objectification and exploitation of women, I would say compared to the sixties today, the the rise of the multibillion dollar porn industry and, OnlyFans and the the shenanigans we see on social media. Right? 100 guys in a day. I think now it's a thousand guys in a day and and fighting against who had the first idea to do a thousand guys. Yeah.
You know that what I'm getting at here. And weakening of family structures. The nuclear family is across the board by the numbers. The nuclear family has been disrupted on all major demographics in The USA. So my my point of all this rambling is that this doesn't seem to just be a riffing over, you know, theological consistency that might be living in the past and is detached from reality, rather.
This seems to be rather prophetic that if you get rid of the procreative from human sexuality, you are indeed redefining the roots of human sexuality that leads to a tree that bears remarkably different and perhaps rotten fruits.
Speaker 0: Kaye Millet, one of these, one of the architects of the sexual revolution said that casual sex would free women from the slavery of marriage. That's what she that's how she thought of marriage as slavery. You know, the devil is the greatest marketer in history. You know, he comes to Eve in the Garden of Eden and and, you know, has a little commercial that, oh, you know, this is the way it's gonna be. This is let me tell you the truth.
And one of the ways that the forces of darkness, you know, capture our minds is the control of language. He who controls language controls everything. And one of the one of the things they do is is they sort of mix the word love and sex where they're where they're kind of interchangeable. Even in the in the marriage debates, over the last few years, there was that phrase love wins. Right?
That's the stupidest phrase I've ever heard. Love wins. Like, they're trying to they wanna change the the rules of the game in progress. Right? Anytime, certain, you know, Marxism or or or these types of political philosophies, anytime they start losing, they start changing definitions.
So you can't say that about somebody. You have to call it this, and that's because language is effective and words have meaning. And when you start sort of playing with them, you know, that's that's what people who want to manipulate you do, and they've done it very, very, very, very effectively. Again, since these forces are the ones who control in many cases the organs of communication, television, radio, movies, it's hard to just sort of, like, grapple it back because they were very patient like you said, Sean. The slow march to the institutions.
They didn't just come in and say we're gonna take over and make a it very slowly started probably with the universities and work their way into other places. And so the question is is do we have to do the same thing? Do we have to sort of go slow in in sort of recapturing the mind of the population to promote what is true, good, and beautiful?
Speaker 1: Yeah. You bring up a great point here. I'm I'm not sure if it's necessarily you know, we have to go slow. By all means, if we can go faster, let's do it. But I think to your point, the main idea we're getting at here is in all likelihood, the reality is it probably will take time and what we really do need I I know Michael Knowles, made a very pressing point on this a while back, he's like we do we just need patience, for the he was talking more on the political right fighting against the Marxists and these people but of course that can certainly to varying degrees extend to Catholics in general And it really does seem that, as cliche as it is, patience really is a virtue here.
The sense of above all else I think the winning strategy is realizing that, again, the truth can set you free and if he is forced then who can be against us? So it's not so much about trying to necessarily ensure that we quote unquote save the world or get the world right in accordance with our vision because of course we're not the saviors of mankind. Only God is the savior of mankind. It it seems that the the most glorious or noble act that we can aspire to above all else is the humility of faithful stewardship to, to Christ, which means in some ways, yes, this could mean you're actually going out and fighting the good fight as far as debates or dialectics or campaigning. But it seems that we need not get distracted from the we need to let these worldly tasks and missions distract us from our main and primary task, which is discernments to God's plan for us, the vocation he has planned for each and every single one of us and faithfully adhering to that plan.
And, I can just say anecdotally to the extent that I have, in fact, probably most of my my faith of Catholicism, the most fruits it's given me in life as someone who is cradle Catholic, left for a little bit and returns to prodigal son in his mid-20s, the best thing that it probably did for me, the Catholic faith, was learn for me to stop saying, Lord, give me this in prayers, Lord, give me that or help me achieve this even if it was for a noble cause instead of Lord, give me. It was trying more and more to aspire towards the posture of Thy will be done. What would you have me do? And I found that to the extent that I'm able to Try to live my faith in that posture of serving him. I find that not only does my own life personally improve more but the world around me seems to have improved Far greater than I ever could have imagined or conceived of otherwise that I almost consider it a miracle It's like when I look back at 20 year old Sean about a decade ago and all the things he wanted, which were, I'd like to think, kindhearted and noble of intentions, I say, oh my, thank God that that never came to be.
I did not know what I wanted back then for myself or anyone around me. So I think there is a beauty in the humility of having these intentions of willing the good for the other and for the world, but above all else realizing that it's it's our primary vocation is faithful stewardship to the the great plan of God Almighty above us.
Speaker 0: Willing the good of the other, that's the opposite of what the architects of the sexual revolution intended. And people on that side kinda get mad if you're not, like, promiscuous. Right? They they want to go after every form. For example, there's a lot of people that wanna chip away and say, well, the the Catholic priests shouldn't be celibate.
That's that's what's wrong with the church. Right? They need to, they need they're trying to attack chastity. They're trying to attack celibacy. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that and maybe explain what what what is the difference between celibacy and and chastity?
Speaker 1: Yeah, most certainly. As far as starting with the anger that tends to be evoked when one embraces either chastity or celibacy, I mean, one of the funny anecdotes in my life as far as one of the things that drew the most scandal in my secular circle as I returned to the Catholic faith was, when people found out that I was, just being chased again and saving myself till marriage. And I was like, what do you mean? Out of all the other flaws and shortcomings I had over the years, that was the one that got, like, the most confusion and or chaos or pushback. So, you know, why is it that people seem to be, well, angry or judgmental over this idea for someone to, pursue chastity and or celibacy?
My guess as the part of it is it has something to do perhaps with natural moral law in the sense that, you know, regardless of what we say and consciously articulate and try to do, we can't escape our human nature. And if there's an inherent morality to human sexuality that is in accordance with our nature, if we transgress upon this morality, we're going to be miserable. A dear friend of mine, I feel bad for her, outside of the faith and struggling a lot. She was, I was asking her, she was a OnlyFans girl, and asking her like, oh how is this doing for you? And she was trying to be honest but she basically said, well sometimes it's tough for me but I think that's just my internalized misogyny, which just made me laugh.
I was like, no, it's because you're hurting yourself, you poor girl. I still pray for her. But, so the point is why, why is it that people would still get angry, with your decision to be chased? I think implicitly, if you know on some level that you're doing something wrong when you're you're being promiscuous, they sense and we shouldn't be judgmental, but I think there is an inherent judgment that is stated is, okay, I am not being I am not going to be promiscuous because I think this is bad and destructive to the soul and I am trying to faithfully abstain to that which I believe is virtuous and for the benefit of my being and ideally mankind if you take that stance and implicit even if you don't articulate it consciously, you're there's a sort of judgment of I think what you are doing is wrong and harmful to yourself. And so it's bad and destructive for you.
And so it's very easy for others to I I think subconsciously get angry at this Oh, who do you you think you're you're better than me because you're you're chasing? I'm not. I didn't say that and maybe it's it's not the best decision for you, but that's what I think it is. There's a sort of projection going on. And to your last question, I suppose the main difference between celibacy and chastity has to do with chastity is the being faithful to God's law of I'm saving myself till marriage whereas celibacy is a spoken contract to God.
Maybe this is getting too far ahead of myself, but celibacy is it's not just I'm waiting for marriage. It's a a renouncing of human sexuality and starting a family in anticipation of the divine marriage that you'll you'll have with Christ. So to be celibate, you have to to make this proclamation with full knowledge and consent of knowing what you're signing up for and what you're giving up, namely sexuality and the joy of union with a spouse and and children, but you're doing this in anticipation for the heavenly marriage which is the final purpose and end of all human existence and therefore in some senses a great and glorious thing. But just because celibacy is considered a beautiful thing because it's the heavenly marriage does not mean that we it's that we denigrate earthly marriage both are virtuous and above all else it's on your job to Commune with god and discern and reflect on that which he calls you to do He seems to call some to celibacy and others to earthly marriage. These are the two sort of ends of your your vocation
Speaker 0: If you just joined us, we're talking to sean a self pro self proclaimed obnoxiously positive optimist about, healthy sexuality from the from the view of the Catholic church. You know, it's not easy to be a Christian, to live a Catholic life. On the Sermon of the Mount, you know, Jesus is talking about not committing adultery, but but he he ups the ante. Right? Or even if you look at someone lustfully, you've already committed adultery.
Same thing with murder. In the Old Testaments don't murder, but the New Testament, it's it's you can't stay angry at somebody because that's sort of the sort of the same thing. So, the call to a Catholic life is is not easy and that's, you know, part of what Jesus says. So you pick up your cross and deny yourself. I would like to invite people a little a little bit.
If you'd like to ask any questions or make any comments, you can go ahead and, and request the microphone. Sean, I wanted to ask you we might have touched on it last time, but what what got you interested in writing about these types of topics?
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a great question. For me, it really came from a place of deep and severe pain, which was In in no part had nothing, you know, this certainly included the lies of a sexual revolution without a full deep life story. He could say in my 20s I was remarkably miserable as a 20 and 21, as a man who was abiding by this doctrine of modernity, right? Life has no meaning, but do what you want when you want.
And I'm like, well, why am I so miserable? Why am I so unhappy? And by all early standards, everyone said, you're doing a great job. You should love yourself, Sean. You should be happy.
I'm like, but I'm not. And so I was like, well, you know, there there has to be more. Why does my life seem so meaningless? And, I had a professor. I I I was studying computer science.
I I talked to this professor about these problems. He he just had a nice kind of, like, skip to a step. I don't know. He it's it seemed like he knew something. And I'm like, hi, Jim.
I'm his friend now. I go by his first name. Hey, Jim. I'm I'm depressed. And he's like, oh, you should read some books.
What? That's weird. But I took his advice. I started reading books and slowly but steadily I started to see, oh, there's a beauty in story and narrative. And I'm like, wait a minute.
I kind of connect to these people here. For those who know me from my Spaces with Evan, there's one book that's very near and dear to my heart, The Count of Monte Cristo. Greatest novel of all time, objectively. No debate on it. But that book was the first time I had what I would call a religious experience where I was like, oh, There was an outpouring in my soul about like I I'm like, I don't know what this is but I love this and I This guy gets me and I'm not alone.
Wait, there's something out here And I followed that love ever since through a love of literature then eventually, philosophy the greeks eventually that went back to an intellectual study of the Bible and then going back to church and kind of doing the rituals and then like faithfully and wholeheartedly adhering to, okay, let me make everything about God. So the long story short of all of that is as a man who is deeply miserable and deeply plagued by the lies of modernity, I found a salvation in Christ through the transcendentals of truth, beauty and goodness and I'm out here now, because I felt like I just can't believe this to myself. So I've I've been trying to write lessons about life's truth, beauty, and goodness to bring people back to God and the church.
Speaker 0: Well, if you're not following Sean, he's one of the best follows on x. Please follow his accounts and retweet him from time to time when you when you get a chance. I did find a link to sort of a compilation of the 129 talks from Saint John Paul the second on theology of the body. I just linked that in the comments. In in his talks, there's a phrase he used.
We didn't talk about this before, so I'm I'm hitting you cold turkey with this. But there's a phrase he said, lust is the fruit of the breach of the covenant with god What do you think about that phrase? Does that sort of resonate?
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, 100 so if we Yeah, no, I'll repeat that lust is a fruit of the breach of the covenant with god now I mean this is a % right if we go back to the original thesis We were saying while the teleology the purpose of catholic sexuality is using your eros your passion to channel you towards agape the divine love that is the the that is reflective of god and his essence himself and so The point is if you deviate from catholic morality your eros instead of moving towards agape You know sex outside of marriage, and essentially the fruits of that does become lust to explain why a little more again, marriage is the main tool that turns your eros into agape. Well, why? Because agape, unconditional love, a willing of the good of the other. John Paul the second defines that as a gift of self. Well, why does marriage make sex a gift of self?
Well, because the marital vows, these are vows of unconditional love for your partner until death do us part, right? Like, I will love you like myself until the day that we die. That's your expression of agape. And in Catholic tradition, when you're bonded in marriage with these vows of agape, every time you embrace the conjugal act, you are consummating and re consummating your marital vows. Hence, marriage makes your eros into agape because you are now a true gift of self.
You gift yourself onto your spouse and in this free gift in exchange, you discover the other and the love that exudes points you to the image of God. So that is love. But sex that is promiscuous and is done outside of marriage no longer has this vow of agape, of unconditional love. You're no longer a gift of self to the other person because you have not given yourself over to a spouse. Hence, you no longer have agape and now your erosk erosk can't flow to agape.
And if it's missing the mark, which sinning missing the mark, if it misses the mark, it's perverting and deviating from its purpose And sexual energy that deviates from love is lust. Hence, when you breach the the marital contract of God, the fruits are lust.
Speaker 0: I think Susan has a question. Susan, hello.
Speaker 2: Hello, Shannon. Hello, Sean. I was just thinking in regards to the comments about, these people so entrenched in the modern view of sexuality being angry towards those who, display and practice chastity. I almost wonder if beyond just the why are you being holier than thou, if it's not an anger at the fact that they see people, who practice chastity being happy in that, and that almost holds up a mirror to them to then see how unhappy they are in their immorality. So that that anger is coming out because they're having to see how wrong and how miserable they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's 100% spot on, Susan. That mirror, analogy you drew, I think that's perfect. As a little anecdote, I also live, in Atlanta and historically have not always lived in the most, safe neighborhoods to say the least. And there's a lot of, unfortunately, drug addicts who wander the streets.
And if you're you're walking by, you're encouraged by all the the locals of, like, don't make eye contact with them, because they're well, and when I'm I'm saying drug addicts and people in the streets who, you know, are not in their right mind and they're angry and cussing in person, you've probably seen videos of the type on social media. And, well, when you wonder why is it that you may not want to look at someone and make eye contact with them who's hurting and suffering and seems, at the very least, the psychological idea, if not the sort of theological truth that's hinted at this, is if someone is deeply miserable and they notice someone else looking on them, You know that look of concern and that look of pity does become a mirror that reflects back into the agonies of their own soul and because something like a Something that burns them like something that is reflecting that it brings back attention to the unfortunate wretchedness and tragic wretchedness of their state of being and this is why you'll see why are you looking at me or I don't want your freaking pity and so on that's where the rage comes from I was using the example of unfortunately those who are suffering with addiction, but it seems that this is something that certainly, corresponds very much onto sexuality and dating as well.
You you tend to notice, this is I mean, I don't necessarily agree with this whole holistically or wholeheartedly, but there is a a certain meme, and I think it's more popularized by the red pill community who I'm not in the least bit a fan of, but they talk about, a bitterness of, older women, towards younger women, who might be happier in marriages and saying something like, it's it's not going to last or they're going to leave you. And, I guess it's the same idea that I'm getting at is it's This anger seems to be a projection at whatever sort of anger or hurt that they're actually expressing in themselves. So in many ways, I think that's just a wonderful reflection that to the idea that you you pursue god the the virtue or the joy that you exude in some ways it is a sort of perhaps hole on the the pain and the the hurt of others who have their pain or their unhappiness as a product of their their wickedness What does scripture say? You know, kindness on someone who does you, who does wickedness is like a burning coal on them, but I don't I've rambled long enough.
I digress.
Speaker 0: You're the cohost. You can ramble all you want. Just a reminder when we're we're gonna just have a few more minutes, but as soon as this conversation is over, I'm going to restream our first space we did last month called the Lies of the Sexual Revolution. So if you've been enjoying this conversation, we'll be playing the one we did that sort of started this all, which was based on Sean's wonderful thread that got 740,000 something views back on, I think, it was December early December on this thing where sort of he spells out the architects, Kate Millet, and some of those people that wanted to what was what was she called, Sean? The Karl Marx of the what was it?
Speaker 1: Yeah. She was considered by Time magazine as the Karl Marx of the women's movement.
Speaker 0: So we'll be playing that so you can catch up if you missed our first conversation. You know, one of the things the, enemies of the church, the architects and supporters of the sexual revolution love to say about the church is this is old, dusty institution with these old men, the patriarchy, it's anti woman. But I wanna just read the first couple of sentences from Humanae Vitae from Saint Paul the sixth. He says, the transmission of human life is a most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God, the creator. It has always been a source of great joy to them even though sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships.
In that sort of the opening couple of lines there, he's acknowledging that it's not always easy to do the right thing. Right? It's, oftentimes a lot more difficult to do the right things, but the church is with us as a companion on the journey with the sacraments. Right? With sacramentals, with with scripture, with with a whole host of, tools in the arsenal to help us on this journey.
I think when we were talking earlier, Sean, when you were talking about you went to this period where you were living away from the church and then as you sort of brought your life into accord, this caught people's attention. Right? They they noticed it. What what that is is a good role model. I don't think we have a lot of great role models in society, but talk about how just living a Catholic life even without going around saying, don't do this or but just by living it day in and day out is such a great powerful witness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, most certainly I love that question and that's usually whenever I get the chance I do like to rant about that because for me I got such a prescient before and after of you know, my relationship to others and how the world perceived me when I was a quote unquote man of the world. And then also, well, what happened once I tried to live in accordance with, with Catholic doctrine? And I joke about this today that sometimes it really does feel like nothing sort of a miracle. And sometimes I almost wonder, like, it can't be anything but the grace of God. It's nothing else.
That's, I mean, first off, I do want to cosign that point you had brought up in Humana Vitae that, Catholic life is hard. You're gonna fail a lot and it's going to hurt. I I think I remember when I was new in coming back into the church and the first time I came across this, Catholic sexual morality, I was like figurative figuratively, if not literally, punching the air, like, No! But, but, the I I think the the very beauty of catholicism is specifically because of how difficult it is and the reality that you realize or at least what I realized and I'm certainly no special I'm way behind you guys So you've already noticed but the the reality is no matter how hard it is the greatest joy and discovery is whatever challenges are thrown your way, the strength that Christ bless you with is stronger that you quite literally you're not guaranteed an easy life, but you are guaranteed the strength to overcome all the horrors of the world. So that's, you know, the very things that you step plague my soul as far as like, oh, it seems way too unbearable to cross the barrier are now the things that I get super passionate and psyched about.
Like, yeah, like, why is it bad to to why is it adultery if you lust at a woman in your heart and in all this? And, like, oh, what does this connect to? But to your point, I guess as far as I think the the biggest reason as to what settled my hyper skeptic faith of, like the final leap of why is catholicism specifically the truth it really was just an undeniable realization of How the world started to perceive me? And especially as I had a background working in the service industry, which is about as worldly and secular and as crazy as you can get sometimes and I have Lots and lots of love for all of my co workers, but you know as worldly as it can get It's funny how how much people naturally began to gravitate me, gravitate towards me. The more that I opened up and I mean, the more that I opened up and just naturally sought to embody, Catholic teaching And my friend who was an alcoholic who went into AA, which is very Christianized principles, he's also in the service industry and had the same exact experience.
The more he started to practice these things personally, people gravitated towards him. And so what I mean by this gravitation is people would come to me. I think of, I may have shared this on the last space But at the risk of redundancy, I have two good co workers who come into mind. One was, my My good friend. He was a very very big andrew tate guy like very big onto the red pill community and he's like, yeah, Andrew Tate, he's got it, man.
Like, that guy's cool. Like, he's got all the money. He's got all the ladies. Like, I wanna be like him. And he he seemed to look up to me a lot.
He, you know, I'm older brother towards him at the workplace. And when he found out that I did not like Andrew Tate, like it broke his heart. He's like, what? No, Andrew, how? You're so cool.
But he naturally, for whatever reason is like, wait, wait, tell me about these things. Oh, wait, you believe in God? Well, why? And like, wait, you're, you're chaste. Well, tell me about like, why?
He just was like a, like a fly that came coming back to the fire. Like he just could not stop getting curious about me. And he would like deeply meditate on what I believed. He's like, you know what it is about you? Out of everyone here who's always stressing me out and yelling at me, like, I just feel, like, calm around you, man.
I don't know. So, like, he's like, what do you do? Like, tell me about this prayer life. And, you know, long story short, since then, that man's, formally denounced Andrew Tei. He's like, yeah.
That's that was weird. I don't know why I liked him. And, he's, started opening up the bottle and is getting interested in the Christian faith that is never, preaching to him. And a similar story, I'll cut this one shorter. I have a a friend, she's a ex co worker of mine and she was, very woke.
So like very secular and leftist and very like believing in ideology of like, Oh, Catholicism is oppressive. The church is oppressive. And like, she like, kind of like came up to me, before work one day and, like, whispering to me. She's like, Sean, I have a few questions for you. I was like, yeah, what's up, Laura?
And she's like, you you like reading books and philosophy and stuff, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. I love that. And she's like, and you're fairly intelligent.
I'm like, I guess if you want to say that. She's like, no. No. But, like, you are how are you how are you all these things and at the same time a Christian? And like she literally whispered it like she thought it was scandal to just Ask me about my faith and she's like, how can you be a christian and yet be someone who's not a woman hater and not someone who believes in these antiquated stories of it like So on and so forth and we had like, we went and got coffee later and had like a very like enriched enrichening conversation and she Same thing opened herself up to me.
She's like I just I'm so angry all the time when I just think about these these worldly things and I want your peace. How do I do it? How do I get your peace? And I'm like, well, the truth will set you free. And she's like, tell me what does that mean?
And you know, we were talking about Plato and philosophy and all things and talking about faith and why I believe it. So it's again, rambling. I like storytelling. I'm a novel guy above all else but the point I'm making out of all this is these things all happen completely organically. It's people just discerning some sort of spirit and coming to you and opening yourself up to you, which ties back to my biggest idea.
If you really do seek above all else to live by the golden rule, love God and take care of what's in front of you and your duty and be kind, I think you'll be absolutely surprised and overwhelmed at the changes that transpire in yourself and how the world reflects and opens itself up to you and how God opens himself up to you.
Speaker 0: Incredible. Yeah. I I produce a podcast for a couple of guys. It's called On the Mark, and it's specifically about evangelization in the workplace. And they talk a lot about this, that you can't really it's really hard to evangelize somebody if you don't have a relationship with them.
Right? We think about Jesus went to the well and he was talking to the woman even though that was kinda scandalous. His his disciples are like, oh my god. She's talking to that woman. Oh my gosh.
And and I like what you said, how how, you know, you were talking to this girl, this OnlyFans girl. Like, you're you're not I think too I think too many Christians sort of they get on the right track, but then they are sort of judgmental about people that aren't aren't there yet. We're all on a journey at different speeds, at different intensities. Sometimes they go off sometimes we're on the right path, but we might run-in the ditch for a while, and we gotta kinda get get the car back on the road, get the tire fixed or whatever. I love what you said about that and what she said that she couldn't believe that you were smart and intelligent and a Christian.
You know, tomorrow is the, feast day, I believe, of Saint Thomas Aquinas, who was a big believer in the the harmony and the synthesis of faith and reason. We're talking about John Paul the second earlier, Theology of the Body. JP two had that great encyclical on faith and reason, talking about they're like two wings of the same bird. And so I just love our conversations on this stuff, and, this is our second one as we come to the end. I hope it's the second of many, many, many, many spaces.
But I wanna just give you a chance, Sean, to maybe just give some, some final thoughts and then I'll ask you about your upcoming project.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Most certainly. I'll maybe give a quick little recap and conclusion, but first I really want to touch back on what you said as far as the beauty of relationships. I think this is the big idea that ties into the whole importance of sexuality. That relationship is the ultimate reality.
That we know reality most intimately and richly and most flourish through our relationships. That this is what the golden rule is all about. Love God and love your neighbor. And So it's, it's the relationships to others and your gift to them that really enables you to floor and have a wonderful transformation of ethos, a transformation into a joyous spirit. And this is why all these talks about marriage are so important.
Earthly marriage is important, I mean, above all else because that's who you're with. So, life does its part, but earthly marriage points you, if nothing else, to heavenly marriage, to your final ends, to all of our final ends. And the ends make sense of the means in the here and now. So the more that you look to understand the richness of marriage and look towards the face of God the more you understand the end the more you can find joy in the darkness chaos and despair that is life today. I mean I I may be known as a obnoxious positive optimist, but I I like to think that's because I also have an obsession with studying pain and suffering.
I I love Dostoevsky and they say you can't fully comprehend the the good news of the gospel until you first understand the dark night of the soul in Gethsemane. But, you know, this is the glory is that no matter what evils are thrown at us, there is a promise that he will give us the strength to overcome all of it and in the end, you know, he will he will win. So, yeah, had to, touch on that. And to your to your point as far as how we might want to finish this, the conclusion, I guess, if we were recapping it, one again this might be a little bit of poetic license, but I just want to share a little story, a Chesterton quote I love as far as that really brings you to the idea of the beauty of procreation and babies. This is from Chesterton's article, The Defense of Baby Worship.
And I think it just touches something on, like, the magnificence and the sanctity of why it's important that the sexual act keeps procreation and what's so wonderful about babies and how this openness to procreation and this denial of contraception restores your union and orients you to the miracle of life and God himself. Chesterton writes, The fascination of children lies in this, that with each and every single one of them, all things are remade and the universe is once again put upon its trial. We ought always to primarily remember that within every single one of these little heads, there is a new universe as new as it was on the seventh day of creation. In each of those orbs, there is a new system of stars, new grass, new cities, and a new sea. Creation is made anew.
If nothing else, this seems to be the the end of all human sexuality is to be faithful stewards of God and His grace and His goodness and to be fruitful and multiply. So above all else, sexuality is about turning our eros into agape, to unconditional love, to see the face of God and procreate new life as a cosmological affirmation that life is indeed good, virtuous, and joyous.
Speaker 0: I love having smart friends. I hang out with smart people and maybe some of it will, will rub off on me. Alright, Sean. You've got, something you're starting tomorrow, which sounds pretty exciting. So I think we, might be getting the first first word of it here.
Is that right? Don't you have an announcement tomorrow?
Speaker 1: Oh, yes. Most certainly. I do have the official announcement isn't until tomorrow, but you guys are the lucky insiders and, sally and nina. I see you guys are in here. You're already on the note, too but yeah, no tomorrow I am Launching a project that is I mean on the one sense It's a a passion project, but it really is the culmination of both my one year journey of writing on Twitter on all life lessons of the true, good and beautiful.
And in many ways, it's, what I'd like to say is the culmination of my ten year search of of searching for God and coming back to God and trying to help bring, men and women back to God. And so, as of tomorrow, I'm officially launching a, free men's community that is, aptly titled, Faith, Fitness, and Philosophy. It's a, it very much is mapping onto the pillars of truth, beauty, and goodness. But, you know, looking back on what I shared in my story story earlier, how modernity had let me down and made me angry and angsty. I'm looking to now not just be someone who goes on spaces and holds you all hostage for two hours and riffs, but, is really trying to build a real sense of community and brotherhood to to grow in communion with other men to share and love these same things, who have a love for truth and beauty and goodness in God and want to know and learn and and go deeper on these topics.
So that's basically it. The title is Faith, Fitness and Philosophy. It's basically going to be morning meditations three days a week where we get together, do some lecture, pontificate about the likes of Aquinas and Augustine, talk about how our bodies and our temples and how we can use them to sanctify God and really just build a good community to try to start the the charge of this this cultural change of bringing God back to the the cultural center of the hearts and souls of each and every one of us and, America as a whole so if You know men listening to this found any interest in talks like this and want to go into more. I recommend you come check, check it out It's in the link in the channel and ladies if you like this mission and would be willing to help me support it or help my mission to try to make more healthy virtuous Catholic men, same thing, you can, bring them right to my page. The link's in the bio.
It has all the information and descriptions. But, yeah, that's enough talking for me for an hour. Thank you so much for everyone and all your time here. I never take that for granted. It's always a privilege
Speaker 0: Alright. Well, best of luck as you launch this, this brotherhood and, maybe after you get going and it's going for a few weeks come back We'll have a we'll have a conversation just about that the importance of, brotherhood And, it's always a great great topic to touch on. Let's see. What are some other spaces that are coming up? You mentioned, Sean, that you do some spaces with Evan from time to time.
Is that on a certain day of the week or is that just whenever?
Speaker 1: Yeah. We had a bit of a, break this past month or so due to the holidays, but we are now doing spaces every, Friday at 11AM. That's, with a dear friend, a mutual of mine, Evan Amato. His full handle is sir Evan Amato, I believe. Yeah.
What we do, we meet every Friday morning at 11AM and we discuss a great book from Western literature and, discuss The True, Good, and Beautiful. Again, Nina's a long time listener and, she seems to think highly of the spaces So maybe it's not a total waste of your time But yeah, we we talk about the the beauty of literature why you should love the great hallmarks of western literature and how a love of this literature and truth points you back to god like all things should

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